Hypothetical question turning into ramblings

[stellar_muddle]

Hypothetical question...

You are looking at a rather good sounding (long term) job and trying to suss out conditions etc. There is some info on the web, but your main info is though the person answering questions for the job application itself and from the sounds of things, in charge of organising that.

Given this is lible to be a 5 - maybe 10+ year signup (1 year training (lets do honours level stuff again, whoohoo...), 1 year basic internship then ongoing career), you would really like to know things like maternity/parental leave conditions, but statements like:

Since we invest a lot of time and money in helping you become a productive member of our Company we believe that, once you're trained, you owe us your loyalty.

make you think that such an enquiry is lible to sour your chances or at least taint it slightly. Or it may not but you are really not certain.

Suggestions?

Edit: which also gets you onto the interesting questions:

Would you employ someone who stated they wanted to take time off for pregnancy etc over someone equally qualified whos partner could do that biological stuff for them? Even if they were firmly committed (at that time) to staying in the job and returning to work after (while maintaining a reasonable work/family balance - whatever the definition of that is - you hear about the corporate male one...(another rant for later)).

Biological limitations/imperitives over natural inclination? Not so much never want to have kids - that is your fair call and anyone pressuring you over that should be slapped, but how do you handle if the mental inclination to do the 9-5 thing (or 8 hour shifts on a 24/7 system or whatever gainful paid employment) lies with the one who has to physically do the delivery etc?

And the practical considerations:
How much money do you need?
How essential is two incomes in this day and age?
How happy are you allowed to be in your work?
What are the flow on effects in paid employment taking either parent away from their children and what are the crucial developemental stages when the effects are most/least?
How sane can you stay through all this?

How much do I want to have my cake and eat it too?
Is the answer "Tough shit. Life isn't fair. Deal with it by making choices and sacrifices. You can't have it all."?
In which case, I want at least one chance at redefining the world in my local vicinity and trying to make it work.

Comments

[mmy-me.livejournal.com]

well, now, see when I see something like that I run screaming for the hills. First of all, "you owe us your loyalty" means "no payrises for ten years", "no extra leave or time off" and "take whatever crap we throw at you, for we were noble and trained you."

If they "give" you that amount of training, it's because they can't just find someone qualified off the street, and they know it. So I don't think you'd owe them anything, except a good day's work and the usual work ethics. "Helping you become a productive member of our Company" indeed!

IMHO, of course.

On the other hand, if it's a really good job, then who cares? You can get crappy bosses anywhere. And unless they make you sign on as an indentured servant, you can still always quit.

/maggie

[stellar-muddle.livejournal.com]

It is a very grating statement - unclear as to whether it follows from management speak badly handled/badly thought out or is a grovelling plea not to have them train you up and then you feck off into the middle distance and join the brain drain in making better money elsewhere. You do after all get a post graduate degree out of it, and after a years work, reach an internationally recognised qualification/standard for doing the job anywhere in the world - which probably does pay better elsewhere.
I'd post the job link but there are certain implications of following though on that, that Z and I are still discussing/not ready to make public. Sorry I am not being clearer...
Idea bouncing is good though.

[queneva.livejournal.com]

It sounds like you're aware of the possibilities. Yes, it's a warning flag, but if other things about the work are powerfully attractive it's worth figuring out more about the culture of the place. It might be quite telling if you could somehow find out their staff turnover ("churn") stats and the age profile of their current workforce, but I can't offer good ideas about how to get them apart from asking nicely. :-)

Have a think about what was and is considered reasonable in cadetship and bonding schemes. They vary a lot, but even when you're training on full pay or having your pilot training paid for there's usually a payback time of somewhere between year-for-year and a maximum I've seen of seven years. Giving you two years' training doesn't entitle them to the rest of your working career, although you might work out a shared expectation about you not walking out the door the day your training ends (and even then, real life events trump most agreements).

Is this work you think you could love? Is this an organisation you think you could help you flourish? (What's their take on provision of quality childcare? Just thought I'd ask...) As you deal with them, do you get the feeling that they care about their people and they're ready to care about you? Is this statement their slightly clumsy way of letting you know that they're interested in a serious, long-term working relationship, or is it a sign that they're controlling types who'll think they own you because they trained you?

Oh, and I think I've just worked out who you're talking about, because they were one of the places I was going to point you at for an example of the training+career thing. Hmmmm... I'd want to get a good feel for what the work's really like and what the place is like to work in before making a commitment of that magnitude. If you get serious, what about seeing if you can do a short internship -- somewhere from a week to a month -- to experience the place from the inside and decide if it's a good fit for you? You're right: for a bunch of reasons this isn't quite an ordinary job choice/selection process.

[stellar-muddle.livejournal.com]

Does what you think I am talking about involve cloud gazing?
I suspect the background knowledge involved precludes the possibility of an internship, which is a pity. The problem is that while I know people who went away to work there, this was about 10 years ago and it is more a case of vaguely recognising them in the corridor, so asking them for advice is difficult.
I think I will directly ask them about maternity/parental leave/child care - worst case it is established I didn't want to work under those conditions, best, I get good information.

[queneva.livejournal.com]

And isentropic flow.

I wouldn't be so quick to write off the idea of arranging to spend some time getting to know what you'd be getting yourself into before deciding, although since they use 'internship' for the post-training year there's probably another term that would better explain it. But my first attempt at professional training was something I ended up hating, and I guess I'm wanting you to avoid that.

Employment law will cover a fair bit of what I think you're talking about in the parental leave stakes, and there's even a period of paid maternity leave before the year of unpaid parental leave kicks in. Having grandparents close by is likely to make the rough spells of parenting more bearable. There's a university campus very close by which I hear has more-than-one good childcare centre: check out eligibility. Oh, and I was looking seriously at Clifton Terrace Model School which is an inner-city training school modelled along the lines of a rural school. Good ERO reports and it has in the past had good reviews from friends in teaching (although note that schools can turn around in the time it takes your children to need them).

How do you feel about shift work? The money thing is largely about choices: accommodation, distance and travel, respite care for parents... ;-)